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Exchange: Greenstein, Stalin, Hitler NB: The following originally appeared on the Socialist Unity website. Background on Tony Greenstein can be found here. I intervened to comment on Greenstein’s previous contributions, which included typically outrageous statements such as these:-
I don’t recognise an “antisemitism of the left.” If you are a socialist then you can’t be an anti-Semite. And if you are an anti-Semite you are no socialist. Period. [Karl] Marx rejected [Moses] Hess’s blood and soil racism... Hess subscribed to the medieval Jewish blood libel among other racial fantasies. Not something Marx believed in! It was the holocaust that made Zionism into a majority political current in the world and Israel represents Hitler’s triumph. ... it is a myth that there was a war of total extermination against Israel in 1948...In addition to answering these and many other Greenstein lies, I demonstrated:- – that Greenstein denies the mass murder of Jews by Stalin
– that Greenstein is the mirror image of an infamous apologist for Hitler
– that Greenstein favours the mass murder of Jews who support Israel
– that Greenstein justifies his position by invoking the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. The editors of Socialist Unity are now aware of these facts, but they continue to publish Greenstein. This tells us how seriously we should take their professions of concern about leftist antisemitism. I have added links while omitting irrelevant comments. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You have to give it to Tony Greenstein: no matter how many times he is exposed, he keeps coming back with the same interminable nonsense! What is one to make of someone who in one breath insists that there’s “a meeting of minds between Zionist and anti-Semite” because they “agree Jews do not belong where they live and were born,” but then explains that his friend Bukhari donated money to a neo-Nazi because “he was taken in by Irving’s self-professed anti-Zionism” and that neo-Nazis heaped praise on his anti-Zionist views and reprint his anti-Zionist diatribes on their websites because “as the saying goes, even the devil can quote scripture”! Does Greenstein want us to believe that neo-Nazis post his writings because they don’t agree with them? Or perhaps he wants us to think that it’s all a clever neo-Nazi trick to discredit him? Perhaps they were put up to it by the Zionists! If Greenstein can allege that the Union of Jewish Students act as “paid and unpaid informers for Mossad” (Return Magazine, September 1990) then he is capable of anything! But then again, Greenstein is quite happy to manipulate definitions of Zionism, anti-Zionism and antisemitism to fit whatever Party line he is pushing at any particular moment. So it is that he cites Avineri on the virulently antisemitic Blood Libel essay by Hess while suppressing Avineri’s point that this essay was penned by Hess during his communist anti-Zionist years! So it is that he cites essays by Birnbaum and Penslar from the Journal of Israeli History (March 2006) while suppressing the major theme of those essays, and of all the other essays in that special edition – namely that all far-right antisemites turned into venomous anti-Zionists! While we’re on the subject of antisemitism, let’s take a look at some of Greenstein’s most extraordinary fabrications. Greenstein tells us that “Marx rejected Hess’s blood and soil racism” and “comments on race, such as the length of Jewish noses,” comments that are “typical among Zionist ideologues.” Perhaps Greenstein would like to explain Marx’s infamous diatribe against the “Jewish nigger Lassalle” who – as “the shape of his head and the way his hair grows also testify” – was “descended from the negroes who accompanied Moses’ flight from Egypt” (Letter to Engels, July 30, 1862, Marx-Engels Collected Works, Vol. 41, p388). No blood and soil racism there! And no antisemitism either, for, as Greenstein informs us, he doesn’t recognise an antisemitism of the left: “If you are a socialist then you can’t be an anti-Semite”! Presumably then, Saint-Simon, Fourier, Toussenel, Blanqui, Proudhon, Bakunin, Marx, Engels, Duhring, etc. were neither leftists nor socialists. Proudhon and Duhring are particularly significant, as they were the first modern European intellectuals to demand the annihilation of all Jews. In fact Duhring’s writings to that effect were even more shocking to Herzl than the Dreyfus case. Incidentally, the French socialists generally supported the antisemites against Dreyfus: “The extreme Left and the Nationalist Right found common ground in France after the Dreyfus Affair in their hatred of Jewish finance, Jewish intellectualism, Liberal-Republican democracy and bourgeois parliamentarism” (Robert Wistrich, “Socialism and Judeophobia,” Leo Baeck Institute Yearbook, 1992, p115). Just as the Russian far left had enthusiastically supported the antisemitic pogromists against their Jewish victims (Stephen Berk, “The Russian Revolutionary Movement and the Pogroms of 1881-1882,” Soviet Jewish Affairs, 7:2, 1977). Just as the German revolutionaries Marx and Engels, while writing The Communist Manifesto, were also publishing a virulently antisemitic newspaper in which they called for the destruction of entire classes and peoples while denouncing Jews as “national simpletons and money-grubbers,” the “meanest of all races,” whose “lust for profit” caused them to “plunder the churches, set fire to the villages,” beat people to death in public places, etc. (Engels, Neue Rheinische Zeitung, April 29, 1849). But Greenstein knows better: “If you are a socialist then you can’t be an anti-Semite”!!! It seems that there are no limits to Greenstein’s historical revisionism. Take his assertion that Zionism was “not a mass national movement of Jews,” unlike the Bund. Of the 5.6 million Jews in in the Russian empire, including Poland, at the time of the October Revolution the Zionist movement had 300,000 members while the Bund had 33,700 members; in elections to the Constitutent Assembly, the Zionists won 417,000 votes while the Bundists won 31,000 votes – thus Zionists outpolled Bundists by over 10-1! Indeed, “The overwhelming majority of politically conscious Jews identifying with Jewish parties preferred the Zionist parties and programs to those of the socialists… [and] it can be assumed that [the] half-million Jews who voted for Jewish parties represented the great majority of Jews voting” (Zvi Gitelman, Jewish Nationality and Soviet Politics, Princeton University Press, 1972, pp71-2, 80-1). Greenstein’s revisionism runs from the ludicrous to the sinister: “It was the holocaust that made Zionism into a majority political current in the world and Israel represents Hitler’s triumph.” Greenstein, of course, knows from Herf’s essay (in the Journal of Israeli History, supra) that the Nazis vehemently opposed Jewish statehood. And he knows from the recent study by Mallman and Cuppers (Yad Vashem Studies 35) that the Nazis wanted to murder all Jews, including the Jews of the Middle East, and that they colluded with the Palestinian Arab leadership in planning the massacre of the Yishuv. So Greenstein criticises Eisen for denying the Holocaust, but Greenstein himself denies planned extensions of the Holocaust! And he does this more than once, for he also says that “it is a myth that there was a war of total extermination against Israel in 1948.” His source for his denial of this “myth” is an ideologue for Mapam! A party that openly supported Stalin’s antisemitic purges! A party led by paid KGB agents! More reliable, I think, are official statements by the Arab League: “This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades.” Finally there is the matter of Greenstein’s ongoing denials of collaboration in the actual Holocaust. I refer not to his falsehoods about Kastner – Greenstein surely knows that Kastner was never in the Hungarian Judenrat, contrary to the Vrba statement which he quotes as Gospel truth – but to his obscene claim that Stalin “save[d] up to 2 millions if not more” Jews from Hitler. The fact of the matter is that during their joint aggression against Poland the Soviets collaborated with the Gestapo in deporting hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees to concentration camps, so that “old people, cripples, mothers of children were sent with their children” to “die of hunger, cold and disease” (Yosef Litvak, “The Plight of Refugees From the German-Occupied Territories,” in Keith Sword, ed., The Soviet Takeover of the Polish Eastern Provinces, 1939-41, St. Martin’s Press, 1991, pp67-9). Such is the depraved denouement of Greenstein’s anti-Zionist fanaticism: denial of leftist antisemitism, denial of Nazi plans to implement the Holocaust in the Middle East, denial of Stalin’s mass murders of Jews in collaboration with Hitler! Comment by Paul Bogdanor — 11 February, 2008 @ 1:56 am -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Bogdanor is a madder version of Mad Mikey and a reacton against his father, constitional theorist Vernon Bogdanor. As such I will not dignify his foaming attacks on the left as having conspired with the fascists to murder Jews. It is a conspiracy theory too far. Just to say that the figure of 2 million Jews who would otherwise have died is cited in Menachem Begin’s The Revolt, hardly a tome of anti-Zionist understanding! And the other mistake I’ll correct is regarding the 10-1 support the Zionists had in Poland vs the anti-Zionists. It is true that in the 1920’s and early 1930’s the Zionists did have a mass base. But as the fight against anti-Semitism increased, the Zionists with their theories of the objective necessity of emigration to Palestine were seen as little more than the validation of anti-Semitism. By 1938 when the local Jewish council seat elections were held, the Bund won 17 out of 20. The Zionists won just one. History is fluid not static. As the terror under the Colonel’s government increased and as anti-Semitism increased, the Jewish masses flocked to support the only party in the Jewish community that sought to fight anti-Semitism, the Bund. Even the left Poale-Zion increasingly undertook joint work with the Bund on self-defence. Bogdanor as a foaming-in-the-mouth Zionist of the far right would understand none of this. But as with Mikey he belongs on Harry’s Place and other pro-war sites. Comment by Tony Greenstein — 11 February, 2008 @ 2:27 am -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tony Greenstein denies that his communist heroes “conspired with the fascists to murder Jews. It is a conspiracy theory too far.” Now denials of Stalinist mass murders are always disgusting. And denials of Stalinist mass murders perpetrated in collaboration with Hitler are particularly vile. And when the issue is the mass murder of Jews, Greenstein is not a million miles from Holocaust denial. Let’s quote just a few of the sources:-
When the Soviets became convinced that many of the Jewish refugees [from the Nazi-occupied zone] were “anti-social” elements they aparently decided to give them a “loyalty test” ... This deceitful tactic was made possible thanks to the close cooperation between the NKVD and the Gestapo. The German assistance in the perpetration of this great fraud on the Jewish refugees by the NKVD was illustrated in two matters: 1) The Gestapo apparently gave its approval to the publication by the Soviets of public announcements that the refugees could register for their organised return to their homes and families in the German-occupied territories; 2) in order to encourage the Jewish refugees to believe these announcements, a Soviet-German committee was actually set up [in Brest-Litovsk]... [Thus] the NKVD had in their possession complete and up-to-date lists, including addresses, of the refugees who had failed the loyalty test and against whom action would need to be taken. The “criminals” of employment age were sentenced to Gulag camps in the northern part of European Russia and in Siberia... Old people, cripples, and mothers of children were sent with their children to places of exile in Kazakhstan and in the northern regions… Both the prisoners and the exiles were likely to die of hunger, cold and disease. The fate of both groups was fairly speedy annihilation. – Yosef Litvak, “The Plight of Refugees From the German-Occupied Territories,” in Keith Sword, ed., The Soviet Takeover of the Polish Eastern Provinces, 1939-41 (St. Martin’s Press, 1991), pp66-9. It was in the course of the third mass deportation, in June 1940, that the greatest number of Jews was deported to the USSR... Compilation of the June 1940 deportation lists involved more deliberate deception than had been used on previous occasions... Two registrations were going on in the spring of 1940 in Western Ukraine and Western Belorussia: one for identity papers and the other, conducted by the German repatriation commission, for population transfers. The actual decision to deport refugees from western and central Poland may have been taken independently of these two procedures. But only as a result of them were complete name and address lists of the refugees compiled by the Soviet authorities. – Jan T. Gross, Revolution From Abroad: The Soviet Conquest of Poland’s Western Ukraine and Western (Princeton University Press, 2002), pp97, 202-3. By the time that the [Soviet] Amnesty had been granted in 1941 (for crimes that had not been committed), almost half of the one-and-a-half-million Poles deported in the previous years [i.e., 750,000 people] were already dead. The victims included 100,000 Polish Jews, headed by the Chief Rabbi of Warsaw, Moses Shore. The exact numbers will never be known. – Norman Davies, God’s Playground: A History of Poland in Two Volumes (Oxford University Press, 2005), Vol. 2, p334.Thus Greenstein is exposed as a denier of the mass murder of 100,000 Jews resulting from collaboration with the Nazis. I can’t resist pointing to one last example of Greenstein’s methods. He says that
the figure of 2 million Jews who would otherwise have died [but for Stalin’s humanitarianism] is cited in Menachem Begin’s The Revolt, hardly a tome of anti-Zionist understanding!I have a copy of this book, which says nothing of the kind: in fact the first three chapters recount Begin’s experiences as an inmate of the Stalinist concentration camps! Greenstein has already unmasked himself as a denier of Hitler’s plans to murder the Jews of the Middle East, a denier of Stalin’s collaboration with Hitler and a denier of Stalin’s mass murders of Jews. Would it be at all surprising if he denied the existence of Stalin’s concentration camps as well? Comment by Paul Bogdanor — 11 February, 2008 @ 6:38 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- With his wild assertions, such as I have “unmasked” myself as a denier of Hitler’s plans to murder the Jews of the Middle East, Bogdanor just reveals himself as a foaming in the mouth liar. He should take a few lessons from his somewhat more respected father and calm down. I have no doubt at all that if the Nazis had conquered Palestine they would have murdered the Jews and many of the Palestinians too, who they saw as untermenschen. It is possible that they would have related to the Zionists as the new Jews of Baron Mildenstein and other Nazis description and treated with them as with other colonial elites. But it was Trotsky who said that Palestine could prove one big trap for the Jews. The idea that I’m a Stalinist is just another example of Bogdanor’s foaming. I come from the Trotskyist tradition but without Bogdanor’s rabid dog approach to Stalinism. Re: Begin’s Revolt. Bogdanor says that:
He says that “the figure of 2 million Jews who would otherwise have died [but for Stalin’s humanitarianism] is cited in Menachem Begin’s The Revolt, hardly a tome of anti-Zionist understanding!” I have a copy of this book, which says nothing of the kind.Nothing of the kind? This is what Begin says:
I cannot forget and no Jew should forget, two fundamental facts. Thanks to the Soviet Union hundreds of thousands of Jews were saved from Nazi hands.It is on p. 13 of the book so I can understand Bogdanor’s difficulty in finding it. He may not have mentioned a figure of 2 million but the gist of the meaning is quite clear. Or how about Nahum Goldmann, one of the key leaders of world Jewry and Chair both of the World Jewish Congress and the WZO at different times.
Let us not forget that the Russians saved hundreds of thousands of Jews by allowing them to flee from Poland, after the Nazi invasion into Russia and enabled them after the War, to return to Poland and most of them to Israel. – JC, 25. 9. 1981, “The Danger Facing World Jewry,” N. Goldmann.Gerald Reitlinger argues that the official figure of 157,420 who returned after the war from Russia is dwarfed by the number of Jews from Polish White Russia who chose to stay in the Soviet Union. Up to 700,000 may have escaped from Poland and eastern Galicia into Russia. A quarter of a million Jews, including those in Auschwitz, the Lódz ghetto and the hidden Jews survived the Nazi occupation (The Final Solution, pp. 303-4). The fact that such large numbers remained concealed is testament to the fact that anti-semitism was not all-pervasive (pp. 497-99, p299). Reitlinger estimates that between 60,000 and 70,000 of the Baltic Jews escaped the holocaust by escaping to Russia (p. 292). The Ukraine contained the true “reservoirs of eastern Jewry.” In addition to the 568,000 Jews from east Galicia, annexed in 1939, over two million lived here. When the Russians retreated in 1941, most employable Jews left with them, leaving only their families. German paramilitary Einsatzgruppe C reported that rumours about the fate of the Jews had already preceded them and that many Jewish communities were reduced by 70%-90% – and in some cases 100%. According to Einsatzgruppe B, “in many towns the Soviets had evacuated the entire Jewish population.” But for the Bolshevik revolution, despite all the subsequent Stalinist horrors, at least a million and a half more Jews would have died (R. Hilberg, Destruction of European Jewry, pp. 107, 109, Student edition). Unlike Norman Davies and Bogdanor, both Reitlinger and Hilberg are acknowledged historians of the holocaust. One of the reasons that Hilberg and Reitlinger for that matter, who are holocaust historians unlike Norman Davies (whose books were subject to severe criticism in respect of their coverage of the Jewish question incidentally) find it difficult to place figures on the number of Poles who died is because so many fled to the Soviet Union. It is no secret that Stalin colluded with the Nazis. I think even Bogdanor knows about the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. This involved for example deporting German communists back to Germany. Likewise the Russians would have deported Poles too, among whom were Jews. However Bogdanor elides over the fact that Jews deported were deported because they were Poles, not because they were Jews. In fact in the first 2 years of the Nazi occupation of Poland, more Jews died because they were part of the Polish intelligentsia than from purely anti-Jewish Actions. Of course for Bogdanor Soviet Russia and Hitler’s Germany were one and the same thing. This is the real holocaust revisionism since but for the Soviet troops and army and the Soviet people, and despite Stalin’s bloody misleadership, hundreds of thousands of Jews were saved from an otherwise certain death. Compare this to the Zionist project which obstructed rescue. So Bogdanor, in his anti-communist zeal, demonstrates once again that he is a falsifier of history. [...] It is a sign of the sick and twisted mind of Bogdanor that he repeats what are really the warmed up offerings of German revisionist historians like Ernst Nolte, who also argue that Stalin and Hitler’s regime were one and the same and indeed that the former gave rise to the latter. That is indeed where the most rabid Zionists end up – as the exonerators of Hitler. There were many things to say about the Stalinist regime in the USSR but they didn’t embark on an attempt to liquidate the Jews, quite the contrary, the USSR was one of the few places of refuge for Jews from Poland. And even Begin owes his life to that fact. Comment by Tony Greenstein — 11 February, 2008 @ 7:34 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tony Greenstein is simply ridiculous. He was not named “the Tommy Cooper of the anti-zionist lobby” for nothing. He claimed (message 250) that Stalin “save[d] up to 2 millions if not more” Jews from Hitler. Paul Bogdanor picked him up on this point (message 268) Greenstein stupidly retorts (message 269) “Just to say that the figure of 2 million Jews who would otherwise have died is cited in Menachem Begin’s The Revolt.” Paul Bogdanor correctly states (message 285) that Begin’s book “says nothing of the kind.” Greenstein then goes to his source and see that it actually states (message 287) “Thanks to the Soviet Union hundreds of thousands of Jews were saved from Nazi hands.” Consequently Greenstein converts “hundreds of thousands” to “up to 2 millions if not more” and then tries to defend his statement. This is a typical example of one of Greenstein’s historical distortions and lies and why no genuine socialist or anyone else for that matter should believe a word of what he says. He is no better than a common liar. Comment by Mikey — 11 February, 2008 @ 10:25 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Greenstein’s latest outburst is surely one of the most embarrassing and self-destructive messages ever published online. Previously Greenstein cited Begin as the source for 2 million Jews saved by Stalin. I exposed this as a lie. Greenstein now admits that he was lying, but quotes this passage from Begin:
I cannot forget and no Jew should forget, two fundamental facts. Thanks to the Soviet Union hundreds of thousands of Jews were saved from Nazi hands.Greenstein has, of course, amputated the quotation. Here’s what Begin actually wrote:
Thanks to the Soviet Union hundreds of thousands of Jews were saved from Nazi hands – though some of them suffered greatly and some of them died in prison, in exile, or as refugees.This example tells you everything you need to know about Greenstein. And Greenstein hasn’t finished: having admittedly lied about Stalin saving 2 million Jews from Hitler, he claims that without the Bolshevik Revolution the Nazis would have killed another 1.5 million Jews! Now it’s hardly debatable that without Lenin, there could have been no Stalin; hence no Hitler-Stalin Pact; hence no WW2 and no Holocaust. Indeed, Greenstein’s mentor Brenner went even further: in Zionism and the Age of the Dictators he wrote that “Stalin’s fanaticism” shared the blame for the “failure to unite” the German left that “let Hitler come to power.” Greenstein has tied himself into this historical straitjacket because he insists on denying the mass murder of 100,000 Polish Jews as a result of the Nazi-Soviet Pact. Greenstein thinks that anyone who mentions the mass murder of millions of innocent men, women and children, including Jews, by Stalin thereby turns into an apologist for Hitler. With identical logic, his counterpart Irving argues that anyone who recognises the mass murder of millions of Jews by Hitler must be an apologist for Stalin. And just as Irving lies about Hitler saving the victims of Stalin, so Greenstein lies about Stalin’s efforts to rescue Jews [from Hitler]. Having denied, Irving-style, the mass murder of 100,000 Polish Jews [by Stalin], now he tries to conflate the number of Jews who fled the Nazi advance with humanitarian rescue efforts by the Stalinist dictatorship. On the non-existence of these rescue efforts, see Ben-Cion Pinchuk, “Was There a Soviet Policy For Evacuating the Jews?” Slavic Review, March 1980; Jeffrey Herf, “The Nazi Extermination Camps and the Ally to the East,” Kritika, Fall 2003; and countless other sources. Especially comical in this respect is Greenstein’s recommendation of Hilberg. Greenstein would be well advised to consult Hilberg’s chapter on Hungary, which not only contradicts his discredited line on the Kastner case but repeatedly cites Kastner as a source. Perhaps, if Greenstein spends some time reading Hilberg, he will learn to stop relying on the testimony of Eichmann? Comment by Paul Bogdanor — 11 February, 2008 @ 11:53 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I’m amused, but not surprised, that Tony Greenstein has made the monumental blunder of invoking the Nazi apologist Ernst Nolte. Let’s compare the two of them. – Both equate Zionism with Nazism. Nolte wrote that “Zionists basically wanted something similar to the national socialists, namely to conquer and colonize a vital space” (quoted in Jewish Political Studies Review, Fall 2002). Greenstein wrote that the Zionist “obsession with demography and purity of the national entity, was no different from that of the anti-Semitic movements whose activities led directly to the Holocaust” (Return Magazine, March 1990). – Both blame Zionists for the Holocaust. Nolte argued that the Nazis were “justified in treating the German Jews as prisoners of war” because the Zionists were on England’s side (Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, July 24, 1980). Greenstein stated that “without a Zionist movement… it is hard to believe that anything like 6 million would have been allowed to die. If it was the Nazis who pulled the trigger it was the Zionists who provided them with the alibi” (Zionism: Anti Semitism’s Twin in Jewish Garb, 1982). – Both claim that Hitler founded Israel. Nolte “maintains that in future historical perspective, Hitler will appear as the one who originated the State of Israel” (JPSR, Fall 2002). Greenstein declared, above: “It was the holocaust that made Zionism into a majority political current in the world and Israel represents Hitler’s triumph.” – Both celebrate the Hitler-Stalin war while ignoring the Hitler-Stalin alliance. Nolte justifies the genocidal Nazi regime as the “strongest of all counter forces” to communism (New York Times, June 21, 2000). Greenstein, above, justifies the genocidal Stalinist regime as the main obstacle to Hitlerism. – Both identify Judaism with an ideology of genocide. Nolte detected “a great affinity between Judaism and Bolshevism” (JPSR, Fall 2002). Greenstein described “the Jewish orthodox religion” as “the fount of the most virulent forms of racism,” discovered “solid foundations for these Judaeo-Nazi views in the Halachah” and condemned “the Nazi pronouncements of Jewish orthodoxy” (Return Magazine, March 1990). – Both defend the PLO and justify the destruction of Israel. Nolte asked his readers to imagine that the PLO “were to succeed in destroying the nation of Israel,” which would be remembered as a “victory over racist, repressive, even Fascist Zionism” (FAZ, July 24, 1980). Greenstein wrote: “I want the state of Israel to be destroyed” because its leaders are “Judaeo-Nazis” (Letter, Weekly Worker, July 20 2006) and he boasted of visiting Baathist Syria with PLO funding (Harry’s Place, June 10, 2005). Thus in all important respects, Greenstein is the mirror image of Nolte, the antisemitic ideologue and Nazi apologist. There is, I submit, one crucial difference. To my knowledge, Nolte has yet to advocate the mass murder of American Jews. By contrast, Greenstein has announced that “If every staffer in AIPAC were to be vaporised tomorrow, alongside Bush, Blair and Cheney, I wouldn’t lose a minute’s sleep” because they are an “anti-Semitic caricature... determined to act out the lines prepared in the Protocols of Elders of Zion” (Alef list, April 19, 2007). In proposing this 9/11-style massacre of Zionist Jews, Greenstein is, I think, in a class of his own. Comment by Paul Bogdanor — 12 February, 2008 @ 12:09 am -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Or in other words, Tony Greenstein represents antisemitism’s twin in Marxist garb! Comment by Mikey — 12 February, 2008 @ 12:22 am -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [...] Yes Begin says “hundreds of thousands” though I remember a figure of 2 million. So? Same order of magnitude. Bogdanor says “nothing of the kind” - nothing mind you. I think my comments were somewhat more accurate. [...] Bogdanor has begun foaming again. I provided him with the quote and he still foams!! He’s not worth bothering with and should go back to his little libel sites and hope to gain a little attention that way since he is a far-right freak who is in good company with Mikey and Hirsh. An example of his method is his quote from me:
“If every staffer in AIPAC were to be vaporised tomorrow, alongside Bush, Blair and Cheney, I wouldn’t lose a minute’s sleep” because they are an “anti-Semitic caricature... determined to act out the lines prepared in the Protocols of Elders of Zion” (Alef list, April 19, 2007).Note the “if” - if it happened. What does the idiot then write?
In proposing this 9/11-style massacre of Zionist Jews, Greenstein is, I think, in a class of his own.There is no proposal in the above it is a conditional clause. If Bogdanor cannot understand that there is no point debating with him. I agree with Ray. The Russians won the war despite Stalin who let the Nazis march in because of his faith in Hitler’s word. But the fact remains that without the Russians having torn the guts out of the Nazis the latter may well have won the war, certainly in the whole of Europe. But I suspect that that is not a prospect Bogdanor would have been too worried about, since he is first and foremost an anti-communist. [...] Comment by Tony Greenstein — 12 February, 2008 @ 11:12 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [...] It is complete nonsense, like the nonsense that Becher was a General, like the nonsense that it is reasonable to attribute a claim that the Russians saved “up to 2 millions if not more” Jews from Hitler to Menachem Begin, like the nonsense that it was a 3:2 majority in the Kasztner case in the Supreme Court ruling. The list goes on. If Greenstein were Pinocchio, the length of his nose would by now be as long as the M1. Comment by Mikey — 13 February, 2008 @ 12:23 am -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here is a slightly more extensive - but by no means complete - list of Greenstein’s lies in this exchange:- – that there is no such thing as a left-wing antisemite
– that Marx did not express racist views
– that Hess wrote his antisemitic tract during his Zionist rather than his communist years
– that Zionism was not a Jewish mass movement before the Holocaust
– that Stalin never collaborated with Hitler in the mass murder of Jews
– that Stalin was a humanitarian mass rescuer of Jews
– that Begin credited Stalin with saving 2 million Jews from Hitler
– that Kastner was a member of the Judenrat in Hungary
– that Becher was an SS General
– that there was no thought of exterminating Jews in 1948
– that Hitler was the founder of Israel Greenstein’s worst blunder was his reference to Nolte. The antisemitic positions of Greenstein and Nolte are exact parallels. As Holocaust falsifiers, they are mirror images. I also quoted Greenstein’s call for the mass murder of Zionist Jews and his use of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as justification. And instead of apologising or at least retreating into an embarrassed silence, he produced this ingenious rebuttal: “There is no proposal in the above it is a conditional clause.” Since Greenstein is so proud of his fantasies of annihilating Zionist Jews, it is worth quoting them at length:-
From: tony greensteinIn other words, right now Greenstein would not lose a minute’s sleep if thousands of Zionist Jews were murdered; and if they could be held responsible for US foreign policy, then he would favour killing these Jews in a nuclear terrorist attack. And he justifies all of this by invoking the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. One would have to consult bin Laden’s speeches to find anything even remotely comparable. – Paul Bogdanor -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NB: This comment was deleted by the Socialist Unity moderator. After all, the blog entry that started the whole discussion was about the need to combat leftist antisemites. So naturally the Socialist Unity editors protect leftist antisemites operating on their own site. In the meantime they had published a new entry by none other than Tony Greenstein. It was entitled Indymedia Capitulates To The Anti-Semites And Holocaust Deniers. How fortunate that Socialist Unity would never sink to such depths. For more on Tony Greenstein, see here.
Subject: [alef] A Sense of Proportion
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 15:40:46 -0700 (PDT) If every staffer in AIPAC were to be vaporised tomorrow, alongside Bush, Blair and Cheney, I wouldn’t lose a minute’s sleep... However the problem with Walsh’s article is that it locates the source of the poison firmly with AIPAC. Presumably if we could engineer a nuke that only devastated its offices and personnel then all would be well in Palestine… That AIPAC acts as the very kind of anti-Semitic caricature in terms of its buying of politicians, its naked conspiracies against those who don’t toe the line doesn’t need to be emphasised. Those who run this despicable outfit seem determined to act out the lines prepared in the Protocols of Elders of Zion. Such are the ways of Zionism. However that still doesn’t mean AIPAC is responsible for US Foreign Policy...